David Scott Norton: Hey everybody, this is David Scott Norton in The Local Music Podcast. Today, I have with me David Hooper. David is a music marketing expert. He's an author. He's a radio host and he's coming to us from Nashville, Tennessee. Morning, David.

David Hooper: Good morning.

Scott: How are you?

David: I'm fantastic. I'm glad to be here.

Scott: Good. Did I cover everything there? Music marketing expert, author, radio host, musician.

David: I would say that I'm a media marketing expert because that's how I have marketed music for 20-something years and I've recently transitioned into working beyond musicians because so many people are coming up to me and they would say what are you doing with you these musicians? I want to know how I can do it for my business. So I said man, you know midlife crisis. I'll Branch out a little bit. So I would say media marketing expert.

Scott: Media marketing. Okay. So I learned about you because I found this book when I'm trying to learn how to you know, what the music industry is about. I'm kind of a late a late starter I didn’t really get into music until I was in my mid 30s and I found your book Six-Figure Musician - How to Sell More Music, Get More People to Your Shows, and Make More Money in the Music Business. At that time you were running MusicMarketing.com. And I really enjoyed that book. I took a lot away from it. So, I guess what inspired you to write that book?

David: You know, I think it's because I just had something to say and that sounds like a trite answer but I had so many people wanting to work with me at the time and I had started I'll call it street promotion, you know flyering, sticking things on phone poles, and putting baby oil on them so people couldn't stick anything above them, doing radio promotion, and I got into what I call the marketing of it that figuring out not just like going out and handing flyers but more strategy and as I worked myself up in the business it got to the point where I was working with bigger artists and the little guys that I'd started with, independent guys, the guys that really wanted it, the guys who were hungry, they weren't able to afford what I was doing or maybe I just didn't feel like taking a little bit of money for it. So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to write a book and I will put down everything that I know in it and it's going to be affordable and it's going to get this knowledge to other people because I kind of knew that the transition would eventually happen. I wouldn't still be doing music. That was kind of my goodbye to the music industry if you will.

Scott: All right, I mean, I appreciate it. I appreciate you getting all this information and that's kind of one of the points of my podcast going here is is just to try to get information out there for the local music scene and people who aren't that big just independent artists.

David: Well that's what everything is built on. When you think about it everybody starts local. In the United States we want to look at our music scene in general. It's just it's a ton of local scenes. And what will happen is somebody will blow up in the local scene. Then everybody will come in and then the whole scene will blow up. But yeah, that's what I tell musicians and said that if you really want a great local scene, it starts with your own and that means you've got to get out and play which guys do but you've also got to go and support the scene. You've got to support the other fellow bands, swap gigs, go to shows, do what you can because anybody could be the next Seattle the next LA the next whatever the hot scene is. It's up to us and very few people want to do the work so I certainly we appreciate you doing this because this is where it starts.

Scott: Right and I like it and I'm learning. I learn a lot, you know for every guest that I have you know, this is kind of little bit more about me. It's like everybody talk to I get to learn a little bit more, you know, so I get to talk to the guy who wrote this book and it's pretty awesome. And you break your book down pretty simply. It's not a very long book. They're like nine or ten chapters, right?

David: It was close to 300 pages. So it depends what you consider a long. Now, my latest book is 462 pages. So we'll say it's not as long as the latest one. It depends on what you compare to, right?

Scott: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess a lot of times and you know reading novels and you know autobiographies and stuff like that as far as that...it’s a good read.

David: Six-Figure Musician is 77 thousand words. So if you want to listen to it a lot of musicians like they say, oh, it's too long. I do have an audio book available.

Scott: Yeah, that's actually how I listened to it. I was never a big reader growing up and Audible has really saved my life because that's how I read most of my books is through Audible.

David: When you think about it though, you’re in podcasting, you’re a musician, so you like audio. It’s perfect sense and that certainly has helped get it to a different audience than it would have been introduced to if it was just only print book.

Scott: Right and what I end up doing is I end up reading a book or listening to the book and then I end up buying it anyway, and I've done that I did it with your book and in a few other ones it's like because you want to use it as a reference and a playbook to go back to it's like what was he talking about? There's something about you know, your commitment or managing your time. You have a lot of stuff in there.Just how to structure yourself. I think one you talk about managing distractions. How do you manage distractions?

David: Right right. Getting harder and harder.

Scott: Yes. Yeah. You know, turning off your phone, getting off Facebook. So I guess when you wrote this, what year did you write this?

David: Oh man, it has been I think it's been about five years ago because the new book took me four and a half years. It's been about five years since Six-Figure Musician came out but I tried to do what we call evergreen meaning that I knew that it was going to be a bit before I updated it or if I updated it and I wanted it to be these tried and true things so many times it's funny you mentioned the phone and I certainly think like this too it's like what's the latest thing that's happening? And we get into tricks and tactics and apps and things and I think that's easy to do like certainly something like YouTube or remember Myspace or mp3.com, but the truth is if you've got the foundation and that's what I wanted to do with Six-Figure Musician. The foundation is what's going to enable you to use any of those things that come. You know, when you sign a record deal they talk about the current technology meaning let’s say CDs or downloads and any future technology because we don't know what's going to happen. We never would have imagined that downloadable music would be here 20 30 years ago. But here we are. So having that foundation just like a record contract that enables you to concentrate and focus on the future, but also be present with whatever is happening now.

Scott: Right, you know for technology. I think you're right people they get hooked on the toys and you can spend a lot of time on Facebook and think you're talking to the world and you're really not talking to anybody, you’re talking to yourself.

David: Or that you're talking to a real fan, right? I mean you got people that are like MySpace if you remember that. People know I'm just I'm getting fans. It's what I'm doing. Well, they're not fans. Fans are the people who come to your show and that's why I really love what you're doing because you've got the local music scene and that's why I say you've got to get out don't just like people go out and see people and then have people come to see you. Those are the true fans. You could have a hundred a thousand true fans in your local scene and that could be enough to make a living. Maybe not a hundred but certainly the thousand and definitely 10,000. 30,000-40,000 likes I see people all the time with half a million likes on Instagram or followers. They're broke and they've got somebody following them, maybe. We don't even know if this stuff gets seen but it takes work to get somebody to hop in a car drive across town find parking maybe pay for parking then go into a venue lose sleep come back home. Go to work tired, you know that takes work, but if you can get those guys, that's what's going to be your bread and butter for your music career.

Scott: So what are some of the tips? What are you know, how do I do that? How do I you know, get the word out get beyond just my friends, you know, you can get your friends to come a few times. Without having a huge budget without having a record label, what are some tips in your opinion?

David: Let’s start there because a lot of bands, you’re going to start, you're going to call your family, you're going to call your friends and it's easy to have like a great opening gig. Let's say your first gig great everybody shows up. You think oh man, you know, I'm really doing it. I've got 50 people in the audience or whatever great is for you and the club owner’s happy. The problem is you can't expect those guys to keep coming and they will a little bit especially if they like you but it's like always compare to the cigarette companies. You know cigarette companies every day somebody's dying from cigarettes. So if you focus on your current customers, you're not going to have any customers before long and your music is kind of similar because people get busy people go, “ugh, I’ve got to go see David again. I don't want to do that.” You know, I mean, you're putting too much on them. So you've got to have outreach to different people and one of the ways to do that and this is one of the things that I suggest doing very early on is to start a  mailing list where you can go to them and let them know when you've got a gig. There's different ways to do it. You can do it via text now, doing it email. I like old-school postcards because they really stick out, but start a mailing list, that would be the number one thing that I would do for a new band to get people online and one of the tricks if you looking for tricks is that I like to have this sounds this year with everything. It's like you can't say the stuff you used to. I don't mean this in the sexist way but have an attractive member of your fan base, and that could be a guy could be a girl, go around and be like, “hey, we're you know, we're taking some photos, we're going to put these up on the website. You want to be in a photo with me? Can you get your mailing list?” Use that. Use that somebody who's really good with people and attractive that people who want to take a photo with and people want to talk to and give their information to start building that list and then you can say hey we're taking photos or take a picture of them without the woman or without the man and say like I will send you this picture. Let me get your info. And that's how you start building your mailing list, right?

Scott: And you don't just set a sheet out there. You know, you're not going to just set your signup sheet and expect people to put their email address.

David: No, not at all. You've got to do something to get people to give you an email. For example, you could say you can do this from stage. You could say. All right guys, we're recording the show. If you want to have a copy of it give us your email address is you know, Jane or Jack is walking around give me your email address and we will make sure that you get photos from the show and also a copy of the show. This is our next song. It's our biggest hit bam bam bam bam bam. It seems silly when you're in the beginning of your career to start out and say, this is my this is my biggest hit or this is whatever. I'm not saying to lie, but you do have to act as if, maybe that's a better word for it, and do these kind of things because it'll be uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to get on stage and play, but you get more comfortable as you go about doing it. It's uncomfortable to ask for emails. It's uncomfortable to act like you've got a lot going on when you feel like you don't and everybody leaves and you're loading up your stuff into like at 84 Toyota Tercel, but you are living the dream you're up there and people really respect that because they've got to go to their bad job tomorrow. Maybe just like you do if you're working a day job still but you're still the guy who's going for it. And I think there's something that’s honorable about that for one but it's also inspiring because they see themselves in you and they want to support that.

Scott: Right. And yeah, and so I guess being active and getting out there and really pulling information out of people, you know, and talking to them is pretty important.

David: Yeah you need to know your fans. For one, they're going to give you feedback and they're going to let you know what they like and what they don't and they might not do that directly with you, but you'll hear it in the audience. If you can have your spies if you will listening. Hey, what do people like what do people respond to? Did you notice people got up and went to the bathroom during a certain time during a certain song? Let's let's talk about that. But also just because you want to be connected with your fans and if we're going to talk you mentioned I'm from Nashville. We're going to talk about how people do that. I think the very best is Taylor Swift Taylor Swift love her or hate her and I don't think she can sing. So I'm not going to say that she's the best musician. But what she is the best at it, she's the best at connecting with her audience. She knows what her audience feels and if you go back and listen to the early Taylor records and the early Taylor records meaning we’ll say she was 15 14. I don't know how old she was, but she knew what those girls were going through and as they grew up, she grew up. She knows what they're going through as well and the music has reflected that.

Scott: Very good points. Yeah, and you mentioned, you know the commitment, you know, you're out there and you're working your butt off and packing up your car. You have a chapter in books called choose your path. Okay. Talk a little about that. When did you just start doing music marketing or just music in general?

David: When did I do it?

Scott: Yeah.

David: Well, I was born in Nashville and you’re kind of born with a guitar in your hand. I went to a church that had a very active music program you might relate to that certainly a lot of musicians do. Music is not in the schools as it was so a lot of people are learning through churches and that's what I did. I did my first session when I was 5 years old doing kind of a Christian Barney Christian Kids Bop kind of thing. So I was in studios growing up. I went to school a block away from Music Row. So every morning I would go down 16th or 17th Avenue or cross them and I would see these big buildings, you know record labels and also publishing companies and it's just kind of the culture here. This is what we do. So I grew up thinking I was going to be a musician. I went to school for music Bachelor of Music is what I've got. But you know being in Nashville, one of the things that you find out about very quickly is that there are a lot of good musicians out there and it can be inspiring and it can be humbling it can be both but sometimes people pick one or the other and to me what I found because part of being a musician is also being a marketer you've got to bring people to your shows that I was better at bringing people to my shows and more interested in that aspect of things then I was actually performing. I like writing, I like being in the studio, I like the creative process, but what I don't like is performing. I used to get very nervous and I would be on stage and there’d be somebody like lean over to somebody else in the back and I'm sure they were like, “hey, you wanna go home with me?” or “hey, can you go get me a beer?” or whispering something, you know just the usual bar talk. But I was like, I mean that that guys making fun of my songs. That guy doesn't like me, you know, and I get super insecure because you are very vulnerable on stage and eventually this made the transition because I liked it more to music marketing so that's the path that I chose.

Scott: Right. Yeah, I’m really interested in that too and just that, you know, the process of learning the business and learning, you know, like looking for people like you, how do you how do you how do you navigate this world?

David: Well, here's the exciting thing. I think for musicians that we've got an opportunity to do. I'm focusing on my career right now on podcasting spreading a message via podcasting which as we mentioned at the very beginning of the episode. It can be for musicians. But I've had a lot of people that are interested in doing that that are not musicians. And when you think about being a musician or songwriter specifically, maybe your what are you good at? You're good at telling a story you're going to tell me the story very succinctly. You've got the beginning the middle and an end you do it all in 3 minutes and 30 seconds and you're good at connecting with people and that's why I think you need to know your audience like that. So if you're good at those things and if you have those skills, you can transition those skills and it might not be music. Maybe music is not your medium. For me it wasn't. For me my medium was radio. I've got a show called Music Business Radio still on the air. I've got various podcasts that I do and then even things like this. People ask me this, “Dave, do you miss music?” That's well. No, because the reason I really got serious with music because I was a 15 year old kid maybe 14 and I just wanted a voice. I wanted somebody to pay attention to me and my guitar enabled me to do that. You know how the guitars work. You pick up a guitar and people start paying attention to you. So they started paying attention to me and eventually they started paying attention to me for other things such as the radio shows such as the book that you're talking about and certainly much more than was ever. I mean, I worked as a full-time musician, but I never really felt that I was - I wasn't having impact that I want. Maybe that's me comparing myself to all the people in Nashville like very big stars that I felt had not only making money but having an impact like cultural impact on people but you know, I think everybody's got their gift and I figured I would step aside and let somebody who really wanted it have that and then I would assist them in that.

Scott: That's a tough crowd. That's a that's a tough road to being in Nashville. When you think about Nashville you think about country music. You think about the stars and the Grand Ole Opry. But there’s also a local music scene.

David: It’s also inspiring though. I could go right now and if I got a Lyft or an Uber to go somewhere that person would be a musician and it’s super cool to have that kind of environment. I never appreciated it until I moved away from Nashville and moved around for a little while eventually coming back here because I thought every place is like that everybody had this creative thing and we all saw that it was possible here. That was another thing and I think a lot of places they don't know that it's possible but it is possible if you want it and if you're willing to do the work. So I think they're good and bad things. I wouldn't I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't change it. I like knowing that something is possible. And even if I decide I don't want it at least I know it's an opportunity if I do want it.

Scott: I travel around a lot with my day job, I guess and I think the first place that I went that had that kind of scene was Los Angeles. You just run into so many people who are so good and so much, you know for me so much better than me. They're everywhere and it just really, you know puts perspective on what are you doing? You know, what are your future plans? And what is the map you have in your mind what you're going to be doing? I think you have to be flexible in that because there's always somebody better. There's always somebody younger.

David: Well, I'm glad you mentioned Los Angeles. Let me tell you in LA Story and one of the things I think separates Los Angeles from a place like Nashville is Los Angeles does have acting they've got modeling. They've got other things that at the time in Nashville we didn't have. We're starting to get some of that stuff. But I have a friend of mine who's in media and he went out there and was working with a director and they're eating lunch at some kind of a hotty toddy place where it's like, you know on the sidewalk you can see the park with all the bikini girls and all the good-looking guys. He's having having lunch with this director for this film and he's like man, you know, I cannot find a good-looking guy for this film and my friend’s like what are you talking about? They're everywhere. Our waiter is great looking and he's probably an actor. They are everywhere. He said well, let me clarify. He said what I need though is I need a good-looking guy with comic timing and personality and it wasn't just the looks when it came down to it. It was the comic timing. It was a personality. He was like, I can't find these guys are all like they're all like mannequins and I think that a lot of these musicians we talk about when we're talking about competition that's competition, but we could probably write off 98% of them people talk about how many musicians there are but there are very few that can really connect with somebody that can make an audience on one hand have a great fun time but on the next song contemplate their lives and not a dry eye in the audience. I think that's really what that's about. So it's not necessarily about musician skills. We certainly have them here in Nashville. They are a dime a dozen, but how many people can really connect? So I think if you work with that connection, which is another great reason for you start getting to know your audience if to know how they how they feel and what their lives are like and what are their biggest fears and you can put that into a song if you can connect with them. Remember what I told you about being in music because I wanted to have a voice. You have your voice for people who don't have it. So if you can connect with those people and you can be their voice. Something that they don't know how to say or feel like they can't say it they're going to love you forever.

Scott: Connecting is that something that you know, you try to do. I think I naturally started learning it and then when I read your your book and a few other ones everybody is preaching the same thing. Connect with your audience, be social, you can’t just be the best guitar player in your basement. It’s not going to get you anywhere.

David: Well, I know guys like that. Yeah, and nothing happened to those guys. They were unbelievable and certainly if you go on YouTube you can see you know, what I like to do. Are you a guitar player?

Scott: I am a guitar player, yeah.

David: So if you go on Youtube, I don’t know if you’ve seen this, as a guitarist. You’ll see these tiny Asian girls and they’re about 12 and they probably play like a thousand notes a minute and technically they are unbelievable. It’s kind of cool to watch because I think there’s a novelty to that, but you’re not going to see them connect with people in a way that maybe some lonely girl who’s about that same age who is feeling like life is about to end and she can barely play and she’s putting her heart into it. It comes to using the emotion not the technique.

Scott: You hear musicians complain about that. They’re really good. They’ve practiced a lot and why can’t they be in the spotlight? It kind of goes back to your Taylor Swift comment. Maybe not the best in the world, but she connects with the audience and she’s social. That’s part of the package. You can’t just be a great musician. You got to diversify. You got to do everything, right?

David: And with that said, she's also an incredibly hard worker. She actually came to a seminar that I did probably 15 years ago, right when she was starting up and just little girl in the audience. We didn't think anything of her with her parents there and that happens a lot because people drag their kids everywhere. This kid’s going to be famous. This kid's gonna be famous. She was pretty engaged and I didn't think anything of it till a couple years. Remember that girl? Yeah. No that was Taylor Swift. It’s funny we’re talking about her, but it’s hard not to because she’s been so successful. I did an interview with her manager. He interviewed me for the new book. He's got a podcast called Music Industry Blueprint. Former manager called Rick Barker and he was telling me stories about Taylor just working so hard to where she would faint because she would sign every autograph and he was doing radio tours with her when she was working on her first record and how hard she was working it. So it wasn't just handed to her. I think you do have to have both but if it doesn't come down to really connecting with people as people and putting it in that extra effort, it's probably not going to happen for you in the way that it could.

Scott: So your new book that he interviewed you about, the title of that is Big Podcast - Grow Your Podcast Audience, Build Listener Loyalty, and Get Everybody Talking About Your Show. I learned about this after I asked you to be on my podcast. Tell us a little about Big Podcast the book and the company.

David: Yes, a new book Big Podcast - Grow Your Podcast Audience, Build Listener Loyalty, and Get Everybody Talking About Your Show. About 15 years ago. I mentioned Taylor coming to that music conference. I got exhausted from doing this event. It was about 2,500 daytime people about 40,000 nighttime people and we would work 51 weeks out of the year for this one week event and then we'd start all over again. We’d tell ourselves. No, we're not going to do this ever, but we take a day off. The next day would be in the office working on the next year. I had had radio experience when I was in college about 15 years prior to that in the early 90s and done a little bit post-college. And I thought you know forget this instead of bringing in everybody to Nashville. I'm going to take Nashville to them. So I'm going to start a radio show. It's going to be syndicated and it's going to be about the music business and I wanted to let people know how great I thought Nashville was. So fast forward got this radio show. I mentioned that people are coming to me from other industries and they're saying how do you do this? How can I do the same thing? You've been very successful at it. I want part of that success myself. So I got more into being a media consultant. It wasn't that much different from what I was doing with musicians because that's how I got started in music marketing. I was doing street promotion and also radio promotion but podcasting to me, you think about what's happening with the right now and you're part of this, is as exciting as a record industry in the 90s back when Independent Records started coming on the scene when it got very cheap for us to do CDs we could do a thousand at a time for example, and it wasn't like we had to do 10,000 it became accessible people have the space to store them people had the ability to sell them. I saw that and I said man, you know, I really want some of that excitement call it a midlife crisis, but I want to get back into that because that's really what I loved about the music industry and as I had mentioned it got to where you know, these younger bands weren't affording me anymore or they just weren't able to work with me. I was doing different stuff and I wanted to kind of bring some of that in so I switched man switched over to focusing just on podcasting helping people spread their message because just like I was mentioning about why I started music. This is what I think is a real opportunity. You don't have to even play an instrument. You can still spread your message and still connect with people all the things we've been talking about. It's just done in a different way and it works with musicians as well still a lot of musicians that follow me on Twitter and that we still keep in touch with me. Certainly Six-Figure Musician is still selling you found out about it. And this is one of those ways for you to keep in touch with your fans. If you are a musician, but don't want to do songs all the time, maybe just want to do a tour diary tell people how the show went and tell people the story behind the song, podcasting is for you. You’re already good at talking why not?

Scott: Yeah, and actually this is a way for me to actually learn how to talk. I have no problem getting up on stage in front of however many people and singing a song, but talking to people can be daunting.

David: Yeah, that’s common and people always ask me how you get good at it. You get good at it by practicing. Perfect practice makes perfect. Don't just keep making the same mistakes that you do, but what I would suggest for somebody who's thinking about doing a podcast not like an interview podcast where you've got to listen, but if you were to just do as an artist a tour diary, let's say. You know start with the intro, write your intro down have maybe three bullet points of the meat of the episode and then put down the conclusion. Like here's what I want to get out there and here's how to get in touch with me and here's how to buy my stuff or whatever your conclusion is going to be. You get better with time and certainly jump in. I mean you hear me umm err err, I’m not perfect either and I’ve been doing this for a good 15 years day in and day out.

Scott: Yeah, and that's kind of just what I did is I just jumped in and you know the first few little rough, but you know, I get good people I get people like you, you know to come on and it helps a lot.

David: Well, I appreciate the opportunity.

Scott: I enjoy it and I just started reading your book. The Big Podcast book this morning. Looks like it has a lot of great stuff in it. I guess that's a point about the podcast or the music or anything is it doesn't have to be perfect, right?

David: It doesn't have to be perfect. I think that it needs to connect. I think it needs to be heartfelt. And I think that it can be benefited by not being perfect and I'll give you a music example of that. Garth Brooks, you know Garth Brooks? He would never auto-tune his records. It's very common. I don't know what kind of studio work you do, but a lot of musicians will get into the studio and they'll put what we call the grid the put the beats on a grid they'll make them perfect they’re going to tune the pitch to where it's perfect and that's not natural. People know what's natural just like when you can hear you and me breathing it's natural because we sound like we're human same thing with with, not the flubbed notes, but being just a little bit off a little bit short or something of that nature and I think that podcasting is the same way. It doesn't have to be like a perfect. Like you can't hear your breath. For example. An audio engineer I worked with said man, if we cut out all the breaths people are going to be nervous because they don't know when to breathe themselves because they're listening. We're listening to verbal cues. I don't know if you've ever seen that where you can be next to somebody you start to take their breathing pattern. People are the same way as when they listen. So the bottom line is the imperfections that are actually helping people connect with you because they see that you're also human.

Scott: Yeah, that's interesting and the whole natural piece of it. It turns out and because I went to a marketing conference, you know, a few months ago and they started talking about podcasts and people told me that you know, you should do a podcast. And I was like, why? I never really found the incentive to do it, you know and one of the things that you know, they said was that if you turn your podcast into a blog you'll get it transcribed Google will pick that up, you know, you know it also pick up your podcast that they can tell the difference between spoken word and the written word and that's how you become an expert on the on the internet is to get your blog post out there and we're search engine like Google can pick it up and analyze it and I thought that's yeah. I'm still got it knows natural speech.

David: An update on that is yeah, you don't have to transcribe it anymore because they do know natural speech, you know things like Amazon home or Google Home and Amazon Echo Alexa as we call it. They are able to go into podcast episodes now and figured out where they'll pop up in the search engines. So you don't even need to transcribe them anymore and they're getting very very good at it. The same way if you say find me images of a cow. They know what a cow looks like. Or facial recognition find me images of these people. So yeah, it's really a great opportunity. I think that as a musician you should be doing still photos. I think still photos leave a lot of mystery. So that's great. We've got Instagram for that. You've got your music obviously, but because people are so hungry for content they want to know about you. There's nothing better than a podcast. It's easy to do. It can take you behind the scenes in your life. You can show people that you're living the dream or if you want to show them that you're on the come up and that you're just like them just like old school Taylor Swift trying to make it happen. You can do that too. Give it tour diaries. It says like I'm going to work tomorrow and then tell your story and they live vicariously through you.

Scott: Yeah, and I've seen that at there's a few people I follow actually from from Los Angeles and couple other places where they were nobody but they just jumped out and started doing a vlog. A daily video log of this is what I’m doing and sometimes it had music in it. Sometimes it had, you know cooking in my kitchen, you know kind of what’s her name - AOC what she’s doing.

David: Look at how people are connecting to her because people are - to take it to like a music example, like you think oh well music is too polished and people thought well politicians are too polished and they’re corrupt or whatever your narrative is for politicians, and we’ve got the same thing about music people, but there’s still this thing that we’ve got in us that wants to make a change or wants to lead or wants to create in the case of a musician. So yeah, what she’s doing is amazing. She is what we call a native in that she grew up around that kind of stuff, not old enough to have never had it. She’s been fun to watch, that’s for certain.

Scott: Yeah, and it doesn't matter what you know, what you think of politics what her or you know, Donald Trump. It doesn't matter.

David: He's good at it too. He’s very good at it too.

Scott: They're both very similar.

David: That's that's the reason he's there. They say that Donald Trump thinks of things in scenes and he thinks of it as in television and I don't know whether that's true or not. But certainly he was able to get in and hijack the media if you will, which is the same thing we're able to do with podcasting and we don't have to have permission from NBC or ABC or CBS. And I mean Trump if you want to use him as an example, he certainly benefited from the mass exposure that NBC gave him as would anybody on a major label, but with that said, you're not necessarily looking for that kind of success if that's what you want to call it if you're looking to just create and if you just want to exist and if you wanna be able to go somewhere without having everybody mob you which some people have a fantasy of that. It's not that fun from my friends that have been through that. But you want to create though if that's the main thing if you want to take it to the brass tacks of why you got into music you can do that these days and it could be done through podcasting through internet through live shows and it's available to you.

Scott: Right but it's got to be natural though and you got to connect, you know, the same thing you talked about being at the show and walking out and talking to people it's the same rules that apply on social media.

David: Yeah 100% cause you're gonna get sick of doing it if it's not natural to you. I think the reason Taylor Swift could stay out and sign autographs for 13 hours at a time is because that's who she is and she's able to do that. I would not be able to do that. At the same time. I'm not selling out arenas. So it's better for me to be behind the scenes and be in the music industry.

Scott: Right and you mentioned, you know, seeing her growing up in this environment, you know much younger. So she doesn't really recall a time before Twitter. And you talk about email lists. And then I think you talked about some of the book to about about texting people which depending on your demographic older people won't give you their phone number at all. You know, they don't want to text but yeah younger generation texting somebody information is not a big deal, you know. It’s not considered spamming I guess.

David: I’m actually working on something. We’re probably going to release it to the music market. It’s something that we got from musicians and got from restaurants, but I was going to bring it to the podcasting market, but so many people still read Six-Figure Musician and know about my music business stuff, it'll probably be in the music market as well. That you call a phone number. So it does use that and it makes it easier on an older audience if you've got an older audience, you hear a recorded message and immediately you get texted back information about the band. It could be an mp3 link if you want to have music. It could be a mailing list sign up. It could be a photo from that gig so we found the best of both worlds, but you're right and people are getting more and more - I had a realtor the other day. I just happened to be driving by a house. I wanted to see the inside of it. Went in for the open house is like, let me give you let me get your address. I'll send you more information. Let me get your email address and I'm like, nope. Not gonna do it good because I'm not that interested in this house, and I don't want you to put me on your list like everybody else and we all feel that way. We all feel that we're going to get spammed and that's why you have to give something good. You have to have that trust with people. So it's a hard thing to build, but if you can do it, it's going to pay off for you.

Scott: Can you can you talk more about this service? About calling the phone number and getting information back?

David: It’s something we're still testing right now because you've got to deal with like phone networks and we've got to make sure it has a stress test. If you were in front of a thousand people, let's say in all of them called your your number at once that's going to possibly blow it up and we want to make sure that doesn't happen. So we've been testing on that testing it with bigger audiences. Yeah, and it's going to be available soon. That's all I can say. I don't have a date on it, but we're hoping shortly that it's going to be available if you want updates on it bigpodcast.com is the way to get those because the mailing list I've got information. If you want to start a podcast. I've got episode templates. I've got other information that will help you with your music business via podcasting and this is certainly we're going to call this. I think it's going to be called Podcast Boost or Podcast Magnet. We're not sure. But there's also going to be like a Musician Magnet Musician Boost something of that nature for musicians. And yeah, it's coming soon. I probably shouldn't have said anything about it because I don't have a date. That's okay. But that's the kind of thing that we're working on because I do think it's important that people are more I guess comfortable with their phones and they're comfortable texting or certainly they're comfortable calling an older audience would be. Like if you were doing like a singer-songwriter kind of thing. I'm interviewing a bluegrass got him Sam Bush today. So Sam Bush’s audience. He is going to be much more comfortable with the phone than text or his audience would be and you want to be able to speak to both of those guys. And yeah, it's probably better than actually asking for an email because a lot of people they don't necessarily use email but they’re using email like things like DM and Instagram or Facebook. My wife she works as a photographer and Instagram is where it’s at. She's actually doing booking through Instagram. It's crazy and I'm like really that seems awful to me. She's like I know but these these models they're probably, I mean they start at probably 15 and then they go to about 21, you've got a small window of time you can do this kind of fashion modeling and they don't do email. They don't do phone. They booked through Instagram.

Scott: And you gotta keep up on the technology because this year Instagram next year. It may be what its Stitch or next year. Maybe who knows what it was going to be next year.

David: Well, we don’t know. Yeah, we don't know. There was no Facebook when I was in college that came ten years after and when I was doing radio when I started we didn't have podcasts but the same skills apply and if I’d paid a little bit more attention and radio class and on the radio, maybe I would have been a better podcaster by now. So you've got to be ready and I think that's why you want that foundational stuff and that's what Six-Figure Musician talks about the new book Big Podcast that talks about it. That one Big Podcast I mentioned it's 462 pages and if people like oh, it's about plugging in microphones? No, it is not it is all about marketing because that's what I do. I'm not a tech guy. I can't tell you where to plug stuff in but I can tell you how to sell it and that's what I wanted to focus on because that really is where the rubber meets the road to me. You can if you want create a song in your bedroom and you can play it for yourself and maybe your dog your stuffed animals your friend but to have real impact and really change somebody's life. You got to put it out there and that's why I made this my mission to do that.

Scott: And I think it's not a direct quote from the book but I think you said something about people get hung up on the technology and getting set up in the right microphone. And I think you said the best microphone is the one that's in front of you.

David: Gotta work with what you got, man.

Scott: Yeah, I like that.

David: Gotta start where you are and if you can’t use, to take a musician analogy, I started out with a cheap PB guitar and if I couldn’t play that cheap PB guitar, I wasn’t going to be able to play a Stratocaster. That Stratocaster wouldn’t have helped me at all when I was just starting, but you think that it will. You’re like, oh I got to get a good guitar. I can understand that, but at you get older, I think you understand that. Still, though, we seem to think that if only I had blank in my life. Not true. You gotta go with what you got. It’s funny to talk about that. Just a podcast example, I’m talking into a $60 microphone right now and it is going straight into a computer and in front of me I've got three one two, three. I've got a $400 microphone. I've got probably four or five pieces of $500 gear. Let’s say $2,000 worth of equipment and a $60 Mike is what I'm into now just because that was the tool for the job. Sometimes not going to be that expensive.

Scott: I mean, that's what I'm using now. I'm using stuff like that. It's an SMB 58. It’s a concert microphone that I take with me when I go to my shows. And it works great.

David: The 58 or the 57s are - or just I guess the regular SM but those are the most popular mics in the world. So why not do a podcast? Plenty of people have I've got a couple of those here actually.

Scott: Yeah, you know and when I was doing this I started getting into what's the right microphone you see, you know, all these other podcasters online and see what they're using and very expensive equipment. I took a microphone I already owned that's been banged around and I put a I think is a three dollar maybe it was $6 foam cover on the top of it.

David: You made your own like windscreen there.

Scott: Yeah, done. It’s working for now.

David: I’ve been in the biggest studios in the world and you’ll go in there and they’ll have one of those stitching spools or whatever people, you know, they stretch out for the stitching and they'll have like pantyhose for their popper stoppers. So yeah, you'd be surprised. These are the biggest studios in the world. I'll have this thing that they made for like a dollar or two in front of a $10,000 mic. It happens. So, you know be like those guys. They figured something out.

Scott: Just do it. Just jump out and do it.

David: I mean that’s the thing, right? Your first gig, you’re only gonna have a few people. You’re going to make mistakes. I think it's one thing to do in your room and it's another thing to do in front of a live audience, but you get better at it and I was amazed. I don't know that it’s a regret with me being the music industry or as far as a performer goes like I didn't give that enough time. I think there was an element of me growing up in Nashville and just being a great player just in general. I thought I was going to be able to get out on stage and do that but I didn't have the experience that I needed and I didn't have the reps as you would call them maybe and I didn't fail enough and that's another thing in the Six-Figure book and I'll talk about in the Big Podcast book we talk about fail fast and fail often. The quicker you fail you find out what doesn't work the quicker you get to something that does.

Scott: Right and you just get back right at it and debugging. Review what you did and what you could have done better and try it again next time.

David: Yep, just. Fall seven times, stand up eight.

Scott: You said you were interviewing Sam Bush today. Is that part of the podcast or part of Lightning 100?

David: Lightning 100 in Nashville, yeah WRLT. It’s both. The way I got into podcasting strangely enough was because I had that syndicated radio show and I was like, let’s do a podcast and they're like, well, what is the podcast? Nobody knew back in 2005 and now because we released it as a podcast we get more listeners on the podcast than we actually do broadcast radio, which is amazing.

Scott: Awesome, and so people can find that at @Lightning100 is on Twitter.

David: @Lightning100 or if you just come to me at bigpodcast.com I can get in touch with you with whatever you need. But yeah, the Music Business Radio it's all around and there's hundreds of episodes. Sam Bush is today. Did a producer for Whitney Houston last week Richard Marx was recently in the studio. So we've got a lot of fun guests that I've got access to because of the radio that I've been able to bring into the podcast and they come and we sit down for an hour. They spill the beans.

Scott: Awesome. Yeah. I'm definitely going to listen to more of those. I think we're bumping against our time here. It's really been great talking to you. So tell us again your website address.

David: The website bigpodcast.com. What do you want? You want a big podcast. Go to bigpodcast.com and I've got all sorts of information there. 100% applicable to musicians. I completely understand the music business and the plight of the upcoming musician. So go there and I'll get you set up with a podcast or if not some great marketing stuff that you can put into your regular music.

Scott: Yeah, and I'm actually going to do a second podcast now that I think of it. Beyond the music industry, I'm doing for my consulting business also, so I look forward to checking out more of your site and getting those templates. I saw a thing about 25 templates.

David: Yeah. Yeah I got the schedule laid out for you, man. So if you want to do different types of episodes, I tell you how to get into it. I tell you what to say here what to say there and how to get out of it. So it's not perfect because you're going to want to customize it but it's pretty good. It gets you thinking about different types of episodes that will make podcasting easier for you.

Scott: Okay. And so it's Six-Figure Musician. Is that still on Amazon?

David: It is, yes. Yeah Six-Figure Musician you can search it. It's in any bookstore that you would go to. Although they might have special order it. Amazon.com is the best place. Audible as you mentioned the audiobook is great.

Scott: Is your big podcast book coming out on Audible also?

David: Eventually, yeah, I'm going to voice that one myself and as we talked about with it being a 462 page book it's a little intimidating to read so I'm a couple months behind on getting the auto audiobook out. I'm not as smooth as sometimes people think that I am it takes a lot of editing but that yeah, that'll be coming soon the print book and the e-book are available right now.

Scott: Okay. Awesome. I'm gonna check that out and check you out. Also people can check you out on Twitter.

David: If you’ve got questions @DavidHooper is the best way to get me.

Scott: Cool. I will put those links in. This has been a great conversation. I learned a lot from your book and I learned a lot from you here today and I look forward to learning more.

David: Thanks for the opportunity. And I hope to see that next podcast out very soon. Hope you'll keep me posted on that.

Scott: Okay, so everybody this has been David Hooper in from Nashville, Tennessee and music marketing expert, author, and radio host, Six-Figure Musician and Big Podcast. Check him out. The links will be in in the notes for the for the Podcast. Thanks a lot, David.

David: Alright, David. Thank you.

Scott: Have a great day.